Came across a very interesting discussion on Reddit. Reposting selected excerpts from it below. (Follow the full discussion.)
Question:
I'm having a horrible existential crisis. If you believe life has no inherent meaning, and that determinism is true, how do you muster the drive to do something with your life?
(Gives more information)
I'm at a point where I feel like I can't do or think anything, because I can't trust that anything is true or meaningful. I can't trust my own thoughts, and that's extremely frustrating and paralyzing.
The kind of thinking I outlined above led me to depression, apathy, and to drop out of college overseas and move back home. At that time, I convinced myself that there were a few things that I had to take care of (school, job, money, dealing with parents), and that I didn't have time for deep thinking, so I would keep my thinking quick and intuitive for the time being. I was happier, more focused, and had more direction in my life.
But, I was not against deep thinking completely. I feel like it should be useful for figuring out things wrong with one's life, things one wants to change, and for living more rationally. I decided to go back to it after I got my life under control, and it just threw me off. Shattered all the assumptions and structure that I had built.
The idea "that nothing can be known with certainty" really seems to be the issue for me. How does one trust their thoughts and intuition? The problem I'm having is, that when I choose a goal, or any sort of structure, guideline, or assumption for my life, I can't act on it, because I don't know that it's what's best. I have this desperate need to "figure it all out", before moving on with my life. How does one feel good and positive about their life, when they know that their own knowledge and experience is so limited? How do they trust that their living a good life?
As for not being able to trust my thoughts. If I don't believe in any objective reference that can guide my thoughts, and if I believe that I don't control my thoughts, then my thoughts become stripped of any value or meaning for me.
Telling myself that I should just accept this or that, or not think, seems similar to the blind faith involved in religion, which we hear so much criticism about. Although, my understanding is that everyone has to take faith at some level, make at least some assumption(s) to guide the way they live their life. But I can't seem to feel good about or trust any assumptions I make.
The only conclusion I can seem to make, is that I should stop thinking and just live my life. But that seems so counter-intuitive, especially since it is thinking itself that has led me to make this conclusion that I feel will greatly improve my life.
Some of the very apt responses:
Zeno of Citium said you should imagine yourself as a dog tied to a wagon. Even if you have free will, your options are very much constrained by accidents of birth and fortune – a kid who grows up illiterate won't become an astrophysicist or great poet, for example. Zeno's answer is that it's best to accept your fate and run with the cart rather than be dragged. You will still have plenty of opportunities to test how much slack there is in that rope.
In either case (determinism or free will) the real matter at hand is taking notice of what you can control and what you can't control and to not worry about the latter. Once you've resigned yourself to that, you'll be amazed at how things come into focus.
--
Doing fun stuff is fun.
There we go, determinism isn't a thought about how we live our lives, but rather why we live them. If you are a determinist and by some supernatural proof you have seen your life is supposed to be pointless, well then you're out of luck. But determinism doesn't mean your life doesn't have purpose, it just means every action you make is a reaction to something that has already happened. The problem with assuming your life doesn't have purpose is that there must have been some illogical statements to the logical conclusion you came to, such as using logic for no reason except to use logic. Nietzsche even said that the third realization of Nihilism is that you must find a reason to life outside of this world, the logical one. So the statement above (doing fun stuff is fun) is honestly the best way to live your life. But also realizing that in order to have the most amount of fun, you must sometimes do non-fun things. You must do your work so you can get paid. You must compliment the lady so you can have sex. You must pump iron if you want big muscles. That's just the problem of life.
--
If you're looking for some logical or rational reason, you're out of luck I'm afraid.
The good news is that humans have evolved to have the ability to cognitively dissociate from facts like these, and have systems like dopamine in the brain that make you feel good when you do certain things. The key is engaging those systems in a sustainable way.
I'm really struggling right now to do just that, actually. Things like helping other people and having fulfilling relationships seem really important in achieving the cognitive dissonance required for a happy life. Alcohol and other substances to artificially increase happiness (via dopamine production, etc.) do not work, as the brain has a tolerance mechanism that makes those solutions short-term only.
--
Playboy: If life is so purposeless, do you feel its worth living?
Kubrick: Yes, for those who manage somehow to cope with our mortality. The very meaninglessness of life forces a man to create his own meaning. Children, of course, begin life with an untarnished sense of wonder, a capacity to experience total joy at something as simple as the greenness of a leaf; but as they grow older, the awareness of death and decay begins to impinge on their consciousness and subtly erode their joie de vivre (a keen enjoyment of living), their idealism – and their assumption of immortality.
As a child matures, he sees death and pain everywhere about him, and begins to lose faith in the ultimate goodness of man. But if he’s reasonably strong – and lucky – he can emerge from this twilight of the soul into a rebirth of life's élan (enthusiastic and assured vigour and liveliness).
Both because of and in spite of his awareness of the meaninglessness of life, he can forge a fresh sense of purpose and affirmation. He may not recapture the same pure sense of wonder he was born with, but he can shape something far more enduring and sustaining.
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent; but if we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death – however mutable man may be able to make them – our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfilment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.
--
Thinking is like any other skill that needs to be mastered. You should learn when to use it, and when to shut it up, especially when it starts interfering or precluding first-hand experiences. As any human being, you also sense reality with another dimensions of yourself: your feelings, your intuition, your beliefs, your empathy, your life experience, your aims, your passion, and so on.
For any meaningful advancement regarding any existential concern, thinking is not a cause, it is an effect. An alternate method to gain knowledge is to place a question like a farmer places a seed, and covers it with soil. Let your concern sink deeply into yourself and leave it there for a time, untouched; do not dig it up time and again with the hectic doubt of your always wandering intellect. Give it time and continue learning, and experiencing your life fully; sooner than later, in the silence of the self, a ripe answer will gradually emerge. From that moment on, you are ready again to continue thinking, without getting stuck. You may now do this as many times as you need.
--
There is no meaning to life. There is no point in doing anything. This is true.
There is also no point in not doing anything. Just go do some stuff. You did stuff before you realized it was pointless. Why did you do them? Because you wanted to. They made you feel happy. You can still do those things.
Or if you want to be more cerebral about the whole thing, consider what would be best for you to do given the situation. Don't go all the way out to the context of the whole universe. Just your actual life. What do you want out of it. Then do that.
Meanwhile, determinism has nothing to do with any of this. "I can't trust my own thoughts." What? Why? Are you literally crazy? I accept determinism and meaninglessness. I trust my thoughts. I think they're pretty good thoughts.
Think about this: You've discovered determinism and it's consequences. What did you think was happening before and what is now different? Most people's concept of free-will is actually incoherent. It requires: choice based on you own composition that is effected by but not determined by outside forces. This is contradictory. It's contradictory because you are not in control of your own composition. You were born and you had no control over that, your starting point. Without (some) control over your starting composition everything must be determined by entirely outside forces. That's the only option.
A quick aside: there is also the option of "random chance." A lot of people like to bring in quantum mechanics and say you can't predict things so they're not determined. First, this is false, at human scales you can make near 100% accurate predictions. Second it's not any better. Making choices based on "random chance" isn't free will either.
So, in closing, you haven't lost anything. You've realized your concept of free will is contradictory. You never imagined that you had control over your own creation. That's the only thing that's different in your conceptions now. You still have free will in the sense that you base your decisions off of your own composition. It's just possible to know beforehand what your choice would be if you had perfect knowledge. Which should have been obvious already. If your choices aren't just random, someone who knew you perfectly should be able to predict what you'd do. Life is exactly the same.
--
I would agree with you. This is what i did, for now: I found a way to keep myself grounded. What happened to me is I started questioning what reality is and what stopped me from doing 'insane' things or just to commit suicide. My reasoning was, initially, that I could not because of my family and friends. (I would use that to initially keep grounded and not do something irrational). Then I decided why I would not commit those actions was because I simply did not want to. We're playing this absurd game in society but why not go with it as much as you decide you would like to, simply so you can derive whatever pleasure that you enjoy from it. I cannot disagree with you when you say nothing is meaningful, but that does not mean you do not have the option of enjoying the experience of existence. What would truly be scary is if you, in fact, lived for eternity. But you don't. You will die one day so go do things simply because you have the option to do them.
It can be safe to assume that you still derive pleasure from things, correct? Pursue them and avoid what discomforts you. Realize that there are things that you do not enjoy and try your best to make sure that your actions do not cause others to feel intense discomfort.
I would recommend reading Nausea by Jean-Paul Sartre. I am just about to get started on it, but I have heard good things about it.
Moreover some of these things helps calm me and find comfort —
1) This painting is called, 'where do we come from? what are we? where are we going?'
It is so beautiful and it illustrates perfectly what we humans wonder about. Find solace that you are not alone. There are fellow conglomerate molecules that are in this with you. Take comfort in that.
2) Go through all the tabs on the left of this page. There have been people far superior in intelligence than us in this same position. Find solace in that we are not alone in our understanding of the meaninglessness of it all.
3) Listen to this song: Empire Of The Sun - Walking On A Dream
As you listen, accept that it is meaningless but that does not mean it is not worth experiencing because, hey, it is going to end anyways. Just go with it. I love the lines about walking on a dream and how were just searching for the thrill of it.
Question:
I'm having a horrible existential crisis. If you believe life has no inherent meaning, and that determinism is true, how do you muster the drive to do something with your life?
(Gives more information)
I'm at a point where I feel like I can't do or think anything, because I can't trust that anything is true or meaningful. I can't trust my own thoughts, and that's extremely frustrating and paralyzing.
The kind of thinking I outlined above led me to depression, apathy, and to drop out of college overseas and move back home. At that time, I convinced myself that there were a few things that I had to take care of (school, job, money, dealing with parents), and that I didn't have time for deep thinking, so I would keep my thinking quick and intuitive for the time being. I was happier, more focused, and had more direction in my life.
But, I was not against deep thinking completely. I feel like it should be useful for figuring out things wrong with one's life, things one wants to change, and for living more rationally. I decided to go back to it after I got my life under control, and it just threw me off. Shattered all the assumptions and structure that I had built.
The idea "that nothing can be known with certainty" really seems to be the issue for me. How does one trust their thoughts and intuition? The problem I'm having is, that when I choose a goal, or any sort of structure, guideline, or assumption for my life, I can't act on it, because I don't know that it's what's best. I have this desperate need to "figure it all out", before moving on with my life. How does one feel good and positive about their life, when they know that their own knowledge and experience is so limited? How do they trust that their living a good life?
As for not being able to trust my thoughts. If I don't believe in any objective reference that can guide my thoughts, and if I believe that I don't control my thoughts, then my thoughts become stripped of any value or meaning for me.
Telling myself that I should just accept this or that, or not think, seems similar to the blind faith involved in religion, which we hear so much criticism about. Although, my understanding is that everyone has to take faith at some level, make at least some assumption(s) to guide the way they live their life. But I can't seem to feel good about or trust any assumptions I make.
The only conclusion I can seem to make, is that I should stop thinking and just live my life. But that seems so counter-intuitive, especially since it is thinking itself that has led me to make this conclusion that I feel will greatly improve my life.
Some of the very apt responses:
Zeno of Citium said you should imagine yourself as a dog tied to a wagon. Even if you have free will, your options are very much constrained by accidents of birth and fortune – a kid who grows up illiterate won't become an astrophysicist or great poet, for example. Zeno's answer is that it's best to accept your fate and run with the cart rather than be dragged. You will still have plenty of opportunities to test how much slack there is in that rope.
In either case (determinism or free will) the real matter at hand is taking notice of what you can control and what you can't control and to not worry about the latter. Once you've resigned yourself to that, you'll be amazed at how things come into focus.
--
Doing fun stuff is fun.
There we go, determinism isn't a thought about how we live our lives, but rather why we live them. If you are a determinist and by some supernatural proof you have seen your life is supposed to be pointless, well then you're out of luck. But determinism doesn't mean your life doesn't have purpose, it just means every action you make is a reaction to something that has already happened. The problem with assuming your life doesn't have purpose is that there must have been some illogical statements to the logical conclusion you came to, such as using logic for no reason except to use logic. Nietzsche even said that the third realization of Nihilism is that you must find a reason to life outside of this world, the logical one. So the statement above (doing fun stuff is fun) is honestly the best way to live your life. But also realizing that in order to have the most amount of fun, you must sometimes do non-fun things. You must do your work so you can get paid. You must compliment the lady so you can have sex. You must pump iron if you want big muscles. That's just the problem of life.
--
If you're looking for some logical or rational reason, you're out of luck I'm afraid.
The good news is that humans have evolved to have the ability to cognitively dissociate from facts like these, and have systems like dopamine in the brain that make you feel good when you do certain things. The key is engaging those systems in a sustainable way.
I'm really struggling right now to do just that, actually. Things like helping other people and having fulfilling relationships seem really important in achieving the cognitive dissonance required for a happy life. Alcohol and other substances to artificially increase happiness (via dopamine production, etc.) do not work, as the brain has a tolerance mechanism that makes those solutions short-term only.
--
Playboy: If life is so purposeless, do you feel its worth living?
Kubrick: Yes, for those who manage somehow to cope with our mortality. The very meaninglessness of life forces a man to create his own meaning. Children, of course, begin life with an untarnished sense of wonder, a capacity to experience total joy at something as simple as the greenness of a leaf; but as they grow older, the awareness of death and decay begins to impinge on their consciousness and subtly erode their joie de vivre (a keen enjoyment of living), their idealism – and their assumption of immortality.
As a child matures, he sees death and pain everywhere about him, and begins to lose faith in the ultimate goodness of man. But if he’s reasonably strong – and lucky – he can emerge from this twilight of the soul into a rebirth of life's élan (enthusiastic and assured vigour and liveliness).
Both because of and in spite of his awareness of the meaninglessness of life, he can forge a fresh sense of purpose and affirmation. He may not recapture the same pure sense of wonder he was born with, but he can shape something far more enduring and sustaining.
The most terrifying fact about the universe is not that it is hostile but that it is indifferent; but if we can come to terms with this indifference and accept the challenges of life within the boundaries of death – however mutable man may be able to make them – our existence as a species can have genuine meaning and fulfilment. However vast the darkness, we must supply our own light.
--
Thinking is like any other skill that needs to be mastered. You should learn when to use it, and when to shut it up, especially when it starts interfering or precluding first-hand experiences. As any human being, you also sense reality with another dimensions of yourself: your feelings, your intuition, your beliefs, your empathy, your life experience, your aims, your passion, and so on.
For any meaningful advancement regarding any existential concern, thinking is not a cause, it is an effect. An alternate method to gain knowledge is to place a question like a farmer places a seed, and covers it with soil. Let your concern sink deeply into yourself and leave it there for a time, untouched; do not dig it up time and again with the hectic doubt of your always wandering intellect. Give it time and continue learning, and experiencing your life fully; sooner than later, in the silence of the self, a ripe answer will gradually emerge. From that moment on, you are ready again to continue thinking, without getting stuck. You may now do this as many times as you need.
--
There is no meaning to life. There is no point in doing anything. This is true.
There is also no point in not doing anything. Just go do some stuff. You did stuff before you realized it was pointless. Why did you do them? Because you wanted to. They made you feel happy. You can still do those things.
Or if you want to be more cerebral about the whole thing, consider what would be best for you to do given the situation. Don't go all the way out to the context of the whole universe. Just your actual life. What do you want out of it. Then do that.
Meanwhile, determinism has nothing to do with any of this. "I can't trust my own thoughts." What? Why? Are you literally crazy? I accept determinism and meaninglessness. I trust my thoughts. I think they're pretty good thoughts.
Think about this: You've discovered determinism and it's consequences. What did you think was happening before and what is now different? Most people's concept of free-will is actually incoherent. It requires: choice based on you own composition that is effected by but not determined by outside forces. This is contradictory. It's contradictory because you are not in control of your own composition. You were born and you had no control over that, your starting point. Without (some) control over your starting composition everything must be determined by entirely outside forces. That's the only option.
A quick aside: there is also the option of "random chance." A lot of people like to bring in quantum mechanics and say you can't predict things so they're not determined. First, this is false, at human scales you can make near 100% accurate predictions. Second it's not any better. Making choices based on "random chance" isn't free will either.
So, in closing, you haven't lost anything. You've realized your concept of free will is contradictory. You never imagined that you had control over your own creation. That's the only thing that's different in your conceptions now. You still have free will in the sense that you base your decisions off of your own composition. It's just possible to know beforehand what your choice would be if you had perfect knowledge. Which should have been obvious already. If your choices aren't just random, someone who knew you perfectly should be able to predict what you'd do. Life is exactly the same.
--
I would agree with you. This is what i did, for now: I found a way to keep myself grounded. What happened to me is I started questioning what reality is and what stopped me from doing 'insane' things or just to commit suicide. My reasoning was, initially, that I could not because of my family and friends. (I would use that to initially keep grounded and not do something irrational). Then I decided why I would not commit those actions was because I simply did not want to. We're playing this absurd game in society but why not go with it as much as you decide you would like to, simply so you can derive whatever pleasure that you enjoy from it. I cannot disagree with you when you say nothing is meaningful, but that does not mean you do not have the option of enjoying the experience of existence. What would truly be scary is if you, in fact, lived for eternity. But you don't. You will die one day so go do things simply because you have the option to do them.
It can be safe to assume that you still derive pleasure from things, correct? Pursue them and avoid what discomforts you. Realize that there are things that you do not enjoy and try your best to make sure that your actions do not cause others to feel intense discomfort.
I would recommend reading Nausea by Jean-Paul Sartre. I am just about to get started on it, but I have heard good things about it.
Moreover some of these things helps calm me and find comfort —
1) This painting is called, 'where do we come from? what are we? where are we going?'
It is so beautiful and it illustrates perfectly what we humans wonder about. Find solace that you are not alone. There are fellow conglomerate molecules that are in this with you. Take comfort in that.
2) Go through all the tabs on the left of this page. There have been people far superior in intelligence than us in this same position. Find solace in that we are not alone in our understanding of the meaninglessness of it all.
3) Listen to this song: Empire Of The Sun - Walking On A Dream
As you listen, accept that it is meaningless but that does not mean it is not worth experiencing because, hey, it is going to end anyways. Just go with it. I love the lines about walking on a dream and how were just searching for the thrill of it.
First of all , I must commend you for being honest and courageous with your thoughts.
ReplyDeleteIts a wonderful feeling to know that you can also feel the absurdity about the general nature of the world. We as humans try to understand and justify the things that we see and feel around us and try to derive knowledge out of that but we have failed every single time. Early in our lives we figure out that candy makes us happy. But eating a lot of candy does not bring endless happiness. However its also true that if you eat candy after a long time it sure is fantastic again.
There is no knowledge in the world but there is a lot of happiness in the world. Although it can not be found all at a single place and for long period of time.
I guess the best course would be to not trust anyone or anything for too long and Life would sure be a nightmare without short term trust!
I m almost done with this thinking business, there was a time when i used to think i will loose my mind.. and i do belive i will loose it once i get a bit old..
ReplyDeletei dont really belive in free will or freedom or choice, the best way to live your life is by having fun, everything else is just meaning less
Please forgive me, I don't know you, I am uncultured and uneducated however I hope I can be of some encouragement. As one who has been through this very same thing I'd like to tell you the truth:
ReplyDeleteYour thoughts do have value.
You are not meaningless.
You are more valuable then you can possibly imagine.
...and some times the "why" is not important.