My conversation with a God-believer, following my statement which goes thus: Only the very weak-minded (or stupid) people believe in God. (Note that I mean only "theistic God".)
People who believe in God are not stupid or weak-minded. They know there is God.
Where is God? I don't see Him.
Do you see the air?
No. But I can feel it. But I can neither see nor feel God.
That's because He is formless.
Then how do you know He is there, if He doesn't have any form?
Who do you think has created this world? Who creates and runs life?
I don't know.
If you don't know then how can you say there is no God?
But how can YOU say there is God? How do YOU know who has created life? Has God told you He has?
It goes without saying. If something is happening then someone has to be doing it. Logic it is.
But why can't things happen on their own? Like, centuries ago people used to believe it rained when God was angry or something. Turns out it's not that! You are now talking like those primitive people who are long proven wrong. I am sure you have read the science text book in school.
Yes. But even the process by which rain is happening must be done by someone. Why can't you understand that?
But why there has to be ''someone''? It all happens by natural processes. Just like rain is not sent by "someone" but happens by some process, that process is caused by some other process. One thing leads to another and another to yet another. For all we know, the whole universe may be running itself thus. Why can't we simply call it nature or natural forces? When we don't know something why assume just anything?
Okay. What is that natural force then?
I don't know. All I can say is there's this "unknowable power", some unfathomable flux of energy at the bottom of everything. And I am comfortable with that much knowledge.
Gotcha! This "unknowable power" is what is God. See? You also believe in God!
Wait a minute! So this "unknowable power" is what you call God?
Yes!
Then, may I ask, what you do in the church every Sunday?
Express my gratitude to God.
By worshiping Jesus? How exactly does worshiping Jesus mean expressing your gratitude to the "unknowable power"? And why do you have to go to church for that?
Jesus is a manifestation of God.
You mean, the "unknowable power".
Whatever you call it.
No. You have agreed that this "unknowable power" is God.
Yes it is.
Well, then if Jesus was a manifestation of this "unknowable power", so am I. And you, too! And everybody else is made of that very "unknowable power" only.
What?
How do you explain believers going to churches, mosques, and temples to worship the "unknowable power"? Are you sure they go there to express gratitude to the "unknowable power" and not have a chat with their imaginary, human-like friend?
Whatever way they express gratitude, it's their choice.
Okay. But why do you have to express gratitude to the "unknowable power"?
Because I am happy to have got this life. And I feel like thanking Him for giving it to me.
Him. You mean the "unknowable power". What happens if you don't express gratitude for having got the life?
I don't know. But I am not arrogant not to express gratitude. It doesn't cost anything. It only means you are humble.
Okay. So, I am arrogant for not expressing gratitude to the "unknowable power", which essentially means bowing before "Him". And so are dogs, birds, insects and every other creature on this earth except God-believing human beings like you. Neat!
Whatever you think!
Hmm. Believing in God means expressing gratitude to the "unknowable power" for having received the life.
Exactly!
Sure it is that?
Yes.
Then I'm wondering why people suddenly increase their frequency of expressing gratitude to the "unknowable power" when they are in trouble? Do you mean to suggest when you are praying to the "unknowable power" a day before your exam, you are expressing gratitude for getting the life? Don't you already do it in the church on Sundays?
I know where you are going. But let me tell you, praying helps.
It does? You mean if you tell the "unknowable power" to do something for you then it will do it? Wow!
You got to believe in God first.
Let's say I believe in God. Now if I ask him to kill you, he will kill you?
No.
Then how do you suppose that through prayer if you ask the "unknowable power" to save a terminally-ill dying man, it will save him? Or just grant your wish with regards to your exam?
You can only ask good things.
Okay. So I will ask Him to kill all the terrorists. I am sure many people are already asking Him to remove all the evil from the world. Why wouldn't He? Isn't it asking good things?
Well, you know what? I just pray. God will do what he has to. There's a reason for everything. He has a plan for everyone. And everything must go according to it. You can't have him change His course. I just believe him, and whatever he does is good.
To re-frame what you said, whatever is to happen will happen. And whatever it will be, it is good.
Yes.
Then isn't it really stupid to pray and ask things of the "unknowable power" on the first place? Whatever is to happen will happen anyway! Why bother asking anything?
But what's your problem?
Nothing's my problem. YOU started this discussion! I am just saying you are stupid to pray and ask favors from your imaginary, human-like friend when you know that whatever is to happen will happen anyway, irrespective of your praying or not praying.
It is not stupid! You don't know because you don't believe. Prayer gives comfort.
What kind of comfort is it when you know that it doesn't work?
It helps, psychologically, to believe that it might work. What's the harm!
It might work!? Then what happens to His plan? You think He will change his grand plan just to grant your silly little wishes? You think you are that important? That sounds anything but humble!
No. I am not asking Him to change His plan. I know I will get it if He has planned it for me, and won't if He hasn't. I just pray for things because it makes me feel reassured by doing that, not because I think He will listen to me and change His plan.
That means you are weak-minded. You need a delusion to feel reassured!
Well...
Period.
***
People who believe in God are not stupid or weak-minded. They know there is God.
Where is God? I don't see Him.
Do you see the air?
No. But I can feel it. But I can neither see nor feel God.
That's because He is formless.
Then how do you know He is there, if He doesn't have any form?
Who do you think has created this world? Who creates and runs life?
I don't know.
If you don't know then how can you say there is no God?
But how can YOU say there is God? How do YOU know who has created life? Has God told you He has?
It goes without saying. If something is happening then someone has to be doing it. Logic it is.
But why can't things happen on their own? Like, centuries ago people used to believe it rained when God was angry or something. Turns out it's not that! You are now talking like those primitive people who are long proven wrong. I am sure you have read the science text book in school.
Yes. But even the process by which rain is happening must be done by someone. Why can't you understand that?
But why there has to be ''someone''? It all happens by natural processes. Just like rain is not sent by "someone" but happens by some process, that process is caused by some other process. One thing leads to another and another to yet another. For all we know, the whole universe may be running itself thus. Why can't we simply call it nature or natural forces? When we don't know something why assume just anything?
Okay. What is that natural force then?
I don't know. All I can say is there's this "unknowable power", some unfathomable flux of energy at the bottom of everything. And I am comfortable with that much knowledge.
Gotcha! This "unknowable power" is what is God. See? You also believe in God!
Wait a minute! So this "unknowable power" is what you call God?
Yes!
Then, may I ask, what you do in the church every Sunday?
Express my gratitude to God.
By worshiping Jesus? How exactly does worshiping Jesus mean expressing your gratitude to the "unknowable power"? And why do you have to go to church for that?
Jesus is a manifestation of God.
You mean, the "unknowable power".
Whatever you call it.
No. You have agreed that this "unknowable power" is God.
Yes it is.
Well, then if Jesus was a manifestation of this "unknowable power", so am I. And you, too! And everybody else is made of that very "unknowable power" only.
What?
How do you explain believers going to churches, mosques, and temples to worship the "unknowable power"? Are you sure they go there to express gratitude to the "unknowable power" and not have a chat with their imaginary, human-like friend?
Whatever way they express gratitude, it's their choice.
Okay. But why do you have to express gratitude to the "unknowable power"?
Because I am happy to have got this life. And I feel like thanking Him for giving it to me.
Him. You mean the "unknowable power". What happens if you don't express gratitude for having got the life?
I don't know. But I am not arrogant not to express gratitude. It doesn't cost anything. It only means you are humble.
Okay. So, I am arrogant for not expressing gratitude to the "unknowable power", which essentially means bowing before "Him". And so are dogs, birds, insects and every other creature on this earth except God-believing human beings like you. Neat!
Whatever you think!
Hmm. Believing in God means expressing gratitude to the "unknowable power" for having received the life.
Exactly!
Sure it is that?
Yes.
Then I'm wondering why people suddenly increase their frequency of expressing gratitude to the "unknowable power" when they are in trouble? Do you mean to suggest when you are praying to the "unknowable power" a day before your exam, you are expressing gratitude for getting the life? Don't you already do it in the church on Sundays?
I know where you are going. But let me tell you, praying helps.
It does? You mean if you tell the "unknowable power" to do something for you then it will do it? Wow!
You got to believe in God first.
Let's say I believe in God. Now if I ask him to kill you, he will kill you?
No.
Then how do you suppose that through prayer if you ask the "unknowable power" to save a terminally-ill dying man, it will save him? Or just grant your wish with regards to your exam?
You can only ask good things.
Okay. So I will ask Him to kill all the terrorists. I am sure many people are already asking Him to remove all the evil from the world. Why wouldn't He? Isn't it asking good things?
Well, you know what? I just pray. God will do what he has to. There's a reason for everything. He has a plan for everyone. And everything must go according to it. You can't have him change His course. I just believe him, and whatever he does is good.
To re-frame what you said, whatever is to happen will happen. And whatever it will be, it is good.
Yes.
Then isn't it really stupid to pray and ask things of the "unknowable power" on the first place? Whatever is to happen will happen anyway! Why bother asking anything?
But what's your problem?
Nothing's my problem. YOU started this discussion! I am just saying you are stupid to pray and ask favors from your imaginary, human-like friend when you know that whatever is to happen will happen anyway, irrespective of your praying or not praying.
It is not stupid! You don't know because you don't believe. Prayer gives comfort.
What kind of comfort is it when you know that it doesn't work?
It helps, psychologically, to believe that it might work. What's the harm!
It might work!? Then what happens to His plan? You think He will change his grand plan just to grant your silly little wishes? You think you are that important? That sounds anything but humble!
No. I am not asking Him to change His plan. I know I will get it if He has planned it for me, and won't if He hasn't. I just pray for things because it makes me feel reassured by doing that, not because I think He will listen to me and change His plan.
That means you are weak-minded. You need a delusion to feel reassured!
Well...
Period.
adsense is showing some bible ad, they make people fools and spend that money to make more people fools..
ReplyDeletecoming to topic, the discussion was good, and arguing with a beliver is like talking with a 5 year old kid.. no matter how you try, they wont understand.. they are just not ready to understand..
Hey man, who you talking too? Are you interviewing yourself, or some imaginary friend? Not being disrespectful, but you were filling in the blanks just like people have done for Centuries to make sense of the world. You interviewed yourself so you controlled the outcome. People have always needed to make sense of the world, just like you. Does this mean there is no God? No. I believe God is far too complex for even our brightest minds to fully comprehend. Our comprehension of all that is God is so limited that a pre-schooler has a better chance of understanding Einstein's Theory of Relativity than Einstein would have of understanding God. We certainly do not know enough to say there can't be one.
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